This Can't Be Normal: When Success Starts to Feel Like Survival

🎙️ This Can't Be Normal with Special Guest Chanie Wilschanski

Some challenges in childcare have become so common that we've started to accept them as "just the way things are." But what if they shouldn't be?

In this episode, Katy and Jessica are joined by special guest Chanie Wilschanski for an honest and thought-provoking conversation about the realities facing the childcare industry. Together, they explore the practices, expectations, and struggles that have become normalized—and ask the important question: Is this really how it has to be?

From leadership and workplace culture to burnout, staffing, and the pressures providers face every day, this episode challenges listeners to rethink what has been accepted for far too long. Chanie brings her unique perspective and expertise to a conversation that is equal parts eye-opening and empowering.

If you've ever found yourself thinking, "There has to be a better way," this episode is for you.

Join Katy, Jessica, and Chanie Wilschanski as they unpack the issues everyone talks about behind closed doors—and why it's time to stop pretending that "normal" is good enough. 💡✨

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:11

Hey everybody, welcome back to Childcare Confidential, Real Talk from the Front Lines of Early Childhood. I am Jessica Hampton.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

And I'm this is me. Yes, that is me. And confession before we even get started, but how many directors and owners do you think are listening to this right now in their car in the parking lot? Um, because the only five minutes of quiet that they're going to get today is right now.

SPEAKER_04 0:40

Oof. Um, pretty much all of them, every single one, probably. I've definitely been there, which is exactly why this episode is so important for us and why it's going to hit a little bit different today. I am so excited. Our guest today wrote a book with a title that is basically the thing every leader in our field whispers to themselves at 10 o'clock at night when they are trying to sleep, but they can't. The book is called This Can't Be Normal. What to do when success starts to feel like survival. I know I have been there, and I know many of you probably have too. She is the founder and CEO of Schools of Excellence, host of the Schools of Excellence podcast, an early childhood leadership coach who has worked with hundreds of directors and owners, even our very own Katie Denk at one point. And she is also a mom, Connie Wilchanski. Welcome to Childcare Confidential.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Thank you for having me. I'm really honored to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 1:49

Thank you so much. We are so excited. I have been going through your book and it is fantastic. I actually had to get to the point where I'm like, Jess, you cannot highlight the whole book. You just can't. I went from the thick highlighter to the thin highlighter to the asterisk to the arrows, all over the place. But before we get into this book, why don't you give our listeners a 30-second version on who you are and how you ended up writing this book?

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Yeah, two really loaded questions. So I'll I'll kind of invite people in where we can meet them. So what led me to really write this book are questions that I started to ask myself. I find that in a world of AI and endless information, um, you can always find another tip, another trick, another hack. But what really changes the quality of your experience, whether that's in leadership and life and marriage or parenting is the quality of your question. And so back in 2020, like the rest of the world was experiencing this existential crisis of like, who am I? What's going on? What's what's happening in my life right now? Um, because uh crises do that to people. They are relationship accelerators, they really accelerate whatever is going on in your life, where it's like, life is too short, why am I doing this? Or life is too short, let's go all in and do this. So, some of the questions that I really started to ask myself is why does having a bigger team still leave leaders so alone? Why does feeling needed feel meaningful until it becomes suffocating?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Why does the very success that we go after create the overwhelm that we're trying to escape? And why do highly capable leaders become trapped by the very competence that created their success in the first place? And so these are some of the questions that invited me to start journaling and starting to really think about what is real leadership and what does it mean to build a meaningful and successful life in all the buckets of our life? And as I wrote it and as I started to write through different chapters, and I said, I kept saying, this can't be normal. This cannot be the cost of success, this cannot be the price of success, this cannot be what it means to lead a beautiful life.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Oh, I love that. I love that so much. That's awesome. Um, I also love the fact that you came up through every chair in the building. We've noticed that as we're kind of deep diving into your book and like your background, but you weren't just handed a clipboard and kind of expected to just take over. You wiped the noses, you closed down the building at night, you did all of the nitty-gritties. And the fact that you're here is just kind of inspirational, to be honest.

SPEAKER_04 4:48

Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's start with the title because to be honest, it stopped me like cold in my tracks. This can't be normal. And if I get a little emotional, I am sorry because no, don't be sorry.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

This is emotions are emotions are language. I might get emotional here. It means that it's real. If we have real human emotions, it means we're not AI bots, and that's beautiful. So now we're having a real conversation. So feel free to surf that.

SPEAKER_04 5:17

I love that. This book spoke so much to me because I've been there. I've been at the top of our schools and going, This is it. This can't be normal. And so when I read the title, I was like, Oh, well, somebody else feels the way I did. You know. So it was kind of reassuring. But as I'm going through it and digging deeper and deeper, I'm going, yep, yep, yep.

unknown 5:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 5:41

Um, so talk to us about, I guess when you first came up with that phrase that this can't be normal. It shows, it says so much to somebody who has worked really hard in the field and gotten there to what you feel like should be like I've arrived.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Sure. So female leaders, which are the largest percentage of people that are working in childcare and really in a lot of the educational institutions, uh, female leaders are not just leaders at school, they are the primary operational and emotional shock absorbers of their entire relational ecosystems. So marriage, parenting, kinekeeping, daughter, um, sister, friend, uh, in leadership. Like a woman in a position of leadership is not just leading a school, she's leading the relational ecosystems of her life. And so when I talk about this can't be normal, there was a particular breaking moment. I had three burnout crash landings before I finally spoke to God and said, I'm listening. I promise you, I'm listening. Talk to me. I cannot do this again. So, but I needed three, right? One wasn't enough. That like that clearly wasn't loud enough. I needed three times for God to pull me close and say, Are you gonna listen to me? Like, are you really gonna listen this time? Because I have what to tell you. So I got on the phone with my mentor, and this is in part one of my book, and I said, I am exhausted. I need to protect my energy. I am so tired. I am this is not a tire that a nap fixes or a vacation fixes, or even, you know, eight hours of sleep. That is not the tire that I am feeling. I am exhausted from anticipating, noticing, forecasting, remembering, reminding, and being a shock absorber for everyone else's insanity and mistakes. And so I need to protect myself. And then he turned to me and said, Honey, what if you don't need to protect your energy? What if you could create it? Now, mind you, three seconds ago I said to him, Hi, I'm falling apart, I don't have energy to do anything. And he says, Hey, you actually don't need to protect your energy, you can create it, meaning the very thing that you think you need to protect is actually the thing that is self-generating and will restore you. And so that led me on a journey to really understand what does it mean to engage in work that restores us, that can help me return and anchor in myself and who I am at my core before overwhelm, grief, exhaustion, disruptive forces, government, money, financials, economy. Welcome, welcome to living, welcome to waking up every single morning and letting reality whip you in the face.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Right. Yes, absolutely. Feel that.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Yes, we do to the core. Can I ask you what you highlighted? Like, what were some of the things that really stood out to you that you're like, I wanna, I wanna do my goodness, so many things.

SPEAKER_04 9:05

I um I think that a lot of what I kind of focused on was the discernment part. I think that a lot of times in our field, we tend to go back to that SOP, that system. And you talk a lot about that in here, how we can have great systems, you know, but that's not gonna fix it if you don't follow them and use discernment. And so that was really big. But I had also reached some um points in my life around the same time where I thought I had made it, and I would lay in bed and I was just so exhausted. And I could get eight hours of sleep, and I'd wake up and I was just like I didn't sleep at all. And then there were nights when I didn't sleep at all. And but and in everybody's else's eyes, it was like, oh, she's doing great. And I felt like I was kind of dying on the inside, like this is it. Yeah, this is the excitement of our career in early childhood. Like it just something was wrong, something was broken, and it was in me, not necessarily my school.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

So that's the thing I want to challenge. When we reach this high pinnacle of success, high capacity leaders turn inward. It's me. I'm the bottleneck, I'm the one that's broken, it's my problem, and that's why I called it this can't be normal. No, you're actually not the problem. No, you're actually not broken. It is the lack of infrastructure that exists in these ecosystems that just assumes that one person should shock absorb everything, and that can't be normal. It isn't normal for one person to have to remember everything and remind everyone about everything and notice everything and anticipate and set people up for success. Another massive myth in this industry that I'd like to bust. Or we need to get buy-in, or we need to get everyone on the same page, all garbage. No, no, no, no. We can unpack any of them if you like. Like people like wherever you want me to take you. Like, I'm here.

SPEAKER_04 11:22

I love that. Oh okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Well, then in the the sense of what you were just kind of talking about, I do want to push on something. If you're okay with it, just a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

You can push me on anything. I will let you know if I'm uncomfortable to the point of not speaking. You can push me wherever you want. I can't. Hopefully, we're gonna get you there. Then the audience gets to witness the show. Go for it.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

There we go. Oh, even better. Okay. Well, here in Childcare Confidential, we don't really do the polished version. That's kind of why we started all of this in the beginning. It's because you kind of have to unearth the ick a little bit. Just it's not always great and dandy, you know. Um, but a lot of leaders here, like Jess was just saying, you're exhausted and they go, Well, that's just the job. You better just suck it up because everybody and their brother is tired. But how do you tell the difference between like a normal tired and then the thing that you're describing? Like, what's the big difference between I love this question?

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Okay. So um, I'll tell you a story. Okay. So I love telling stories. So Esther Perrell uh is a psychotherapist based out of New York City. She has a podcast, Where Should We Begin? And uh, she's been in practice for almost 40 years. Um, she's has some really great work, but one of the stories that she tells often is she's a child of Holocaust survivors. Both her parents uh were the sole survivors of their entire family. And she said when she was growing up, there were certain homes that she was in that they weren't dead, but they weren't alive. And there were certain homes that she walked into where there was a sense of aliveness. She said, I grew up in a home where my parents said we didn't survive for nothing. We will live. There will be a sense of vitality, vivaciousness, and aliveness in this home. And she saw the stark difference, right? Because all her friends were children of Holocaust survivors, right? That's the community that she grew up in. And she brought this thread into her line of work. And so when I think of your question of, well, everyone is tired, right? There is a tire that comes with this sense of pride of, I'm tired from a beautiful day of work. I'm tired from a beautiful day of meaningful work, but we never lose our sense of aliveness, our sense of who are we when we're not producing, outputting, forecasting, anticipating, and doing all of these things. And so most people come to me at that point when they are numb. They are losing their aliveness, they don't know who they are anymore. They don't know what they like to drink in the morning for coffee, they don't know what they like to eat for supper, they don't even know what their food preferences are, they don't know what their favorite colors are, they have no idea what they even like to do for pleasure. Like, how am I supposed to know all of this? Like, my life is always orchestrating about what is good for everyone else. What does my husband need? What do my kids need? What do my staff need? What do my directors need? What does this one need? Everything is about what does everyone need? And that was my breaking point where I said, every single human who is in my orbit has the most beautiful life in the world, except for me, because I am funding it with my invisible labor, and that can't be normal. Every single person gets to enjoy the beautiful experiences because you create them. But when do you get to inhabit the experiences that you create? Never. And that can't be normal. That is the kind of exhaustion that leaders are begging for relief from. And they think that systems, processes, softwares, EOS, and all kinds of bullshit are gonna actually get them the relief that they want. I'm a New Yorker, so you'll let me know if I can't uh No, I love it.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

You're good.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Okay, for real. That's at the core of it. Does that answer your question, Katie? And you can feel free to ask me.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

Okay. No, yeah, that was really good. Gave me goose pimples. How about that? That's where we're at.

SPEAKER_04 15:40

You know, I feel that yeah, I would look at that. And the way you said it was was great because the way I was viewing it before reading the book was that I give a piece of myself to every other else, and I feel like it's just give, give, give, give, give, give, give. Yes. And at the end, I'm going, well, what's there left to give?

SPEAKER_01 16:01

But also, when is it my turn for kids? Yeah, when does someone check on me and say, How are you, Jessica? But not how are you, so they can gauge, can I extract from you? Can I take something from you right now? Right? Because the how are you always has an agenda. Very few people actually want to know how you are at your core. Because we train people that way. We train people that we are smart and capable and independent and strong and all of these things, and we will figure everything out. So, really, what we do constantly is we send a message. I'm not really human, I don't really have limitations, I don't really have a beautiful heart and soul that also needs nurturing and love and care. You guys all need that, and I'll give that to all of you. And one day I'll get my thing, but I don't really need that. No, you do own the wanting. You do need care, you do need someone to look after you, you do want someone to check on you, you do want someone to come and say, Jessica, enrollment's down by 10%. Here are the three things that I'm doing to get it up again. I'm gonna run this experiment, this experiment, and this experiment. And after those fail, and if it doesn't, I'll come back and I'll let you know what else is going on. Don't worry about anything. You deserve that.

SPEAKER_04 17:21

Oh man, isn't that a beautiful picture? I know I have recently gotten that with Katie joining our team as our executive director, but I've been through those stages too, where you every how are you is loaded with more questions and more information that's wanted from you. So I thought, let's make an SOP for that. You know, it'll fix everything. And it wasn't fixing what was broken inside of me, which is why I think that one of the biggest things that stuck out in your book to me, and honestly, I'm usually not an emotional basket case, but I was even crying when I read this because it just gave me a chance to exhale a little bit. But you said in the book that you're not drowning because you're weak. And I was like, No, no, no, stay with it, stay with it. As a good leader, like I have been taught my whole life do better, work harder, do more, and everything will be okay. And I was at the top of where I was like, okay, well, everything's great, everything's perfect. What more do I need to do? But I still felt like I was drowning and I felt like I was weak because I felt like it wasn't enough. Everything I was doing wasn't enough.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

And that can't be normal.

SPEAKER_04 18:43

It can't be, and it brings this piece of shame to you when you think that way.

unknown 18:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:49

And I think that a lot of leaders out there really need to hear this and read the book because a lot of times we think we're the problem. Like I'm not good enough because I can't do more.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

We're conditioned that way from society, we're conditioned that way that women are the nurturers, the caretakers, the intuitive ones, the ones with the sixth sense. And so we're schooled very, very young to take care of other people and to be there for other people. And it's beautiful. I'm not saying lose that beautiful side of you that is nurturing. And remember that you're a human who also has needs. What happens is that as we enter leadership, we forget our humanity, that we also have a need and a desire to be nurtured and taken care of and treasured and pursued and taken care of because we all need that as part of our humanity. But we try to close off our humanity as we go after these big, audacious goals of success. And what I illustrate through the book, through a lot of different personal stories and then client stories, and all of these things is that what we're seeking is integration of ourselves. Yes, we have these ambitious, amazing parts of us that are going to go after and big, big, big, big dreams. Damn, I can't say anything. Um, but and at the same time, we are humans that want connection and meaning and intimacy and to be seen and to be witnessed. I didn't solve anything for you while you read that book, but you felt seen. You felt now I'm not invisible. And that moment of feeling witnessed is the exhale that leaders desire more than anything. It's I don't need giant thank yous all day long, but do you see what it costs me to do this? Do you understand what it takes to be this person for everyone? And that's what happens because you are so good at it, the more invisible you become because everyone forgets that someone's holding this bridge together.

SPEAKER_04 21:11

Yes, yes. You're often the invisible, you know, like you talked about invisible labor. We're giving and giving and giving, and people don't see how much it really costs.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah, so think about solitary confinement. Why is that such a harsh punishment? Why is that the ultimate punishment? Because we're so alone national creatures, yeah. When I think solitary confinement, they're invisible to the world.

SPEAKER_04 21:42

And I think in our world, leaders, directors of schools, they feel so alone.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

It's invisible. It's because here's the thing they have a giant team, like I started in the beginning. Why does a bigger team still make you feel so alone? You're You're not physically alone. You actually have an amazing team that's staffed. You have a great teachers. You have parents. You have kids. You are not alone. You are invisible in your life. And that can be normal.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_04 22:15

Jessica and I were actually feel it.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

We were talking about that this morning, but like the invisible weight language and how it just kind of lives rent-free in people's heads. I think it's going to continue to do so. It yeah, it's intense.

SPEAKER_04 22:32

Yeah. Um, let's talk about one of the things that you had mentioned. Systems create structure, standards create clarity, but only rhythms create safety. Can you unpack that for the director who's maybe ready for the summer this year? And maybe they got a brand new handbook or they're just starting their summer program and kind of out there doing the day-to-day, what that really looks like. Because that stood out to me too. We need rhythm.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

Yeah. So systems create structure, right? We all need systems, right? I have a whole chapter called The False Promise of Systems. And I write clearly that I'm not negating how important systems are, but it is incomplete. So systems create structure. You need a system for onboarding, for offboarding, for bringing parents in, for payment processing, for all of these things. You must you must have systems. You can't reinvent it every single time someone needs to, you know, process their payment. Like you need a payment processing system. Okay. That the leader was listening to this, like, I'm not talking to the leader who like doesn't even have a credit card processing machine. Like, we are talking to people that are at the top of their game, that have every system, they have biohacked their life, they have systematized to death, and they're still tired and exhausted. Like that's what this book is for. This is not for the person who's like, I'm one year in and I don't have any systems yet. Please go build all of your systems and then we'll have you need some systems, okay? You need structure, okay? That's not the person I'm talking to. Okay. So systems create structure, standards create clarity. Okay, what are the standards here? What is okay and not okay here, right? Now, leaders want to be the nice one, the kind one, right? So they create a standard, and then the teacher's like, well, I don't believe in that. Well, why do I have to cover my tattoos? Like, I think tattoos should be fully exposed. It's an expression of myself. Like, why should I have to cover them? It's like, well, this is the standard in our school. If you want to work here, you need to cut, but it feels very inhibiting. Like, why are you like crushing myself? Like, I feel like you're crushing my soul. Okay, well, maybe this is gonna fit. Maybe you don't belong working here because our standards are you need to cover your tattoos. I don't have anything against tattoos. I'm just telling you that in our company, this is our standard. But leaders don't do that. They're like, okay, it's fine, it's okay. Maybe we don't really need that standard. Like, it's okay, it's it's okay, it's it's kind of okay. No, when a leader says it's okay, they're managing their own discomfort. Every time a leader says it's okay, when it's not okay, you're managing your own discomfort, which means when you say it's okay, what are you really saying? I don't want to be seen as demanding, I don't want to be seen as this, I don't want them to leave me, I don't want them to do X, Y, and Z. So I'm just gonna say it's okay. But it's not okay. It's not okay. And so you create ambiguity and confusion inside of the organization. So standards create clarity, and I go that in deep in the integrity of standards chapters, you guys can go deeper inside of there. Even when you have systems with your structure and you have clear standards of clarity, rhythms create safety because we need a predictable return. So a rhythm is a repeated intentional pattern of behavior that anchors an entire ecosystem, whether that's yourself, your school, your marriage, entire ecosystems. Now, a rhythm has three parts, and this is why it is different than a ritual, a habit, a system, a blah, blah, blah, fill in the blank. Okay. A good rhythm has three parts. It is one pre-decided income, not renegotiated under pressure. So a rhythm is predecided. It is predecided in advance. This is non-negotiable, which means even when licensing shows up and there's a flu, and four teachers called out, and you had a biting incident, and someone had a baby, this still stands. Because if it doesn't, then you renegotiated it under pressure, which means it's not a rhythm, which means it's not a predictable return, which means I can't exhale and be safe here yet. Because safety is only if everything works out properly. Good luck with every single the way that you want it to. So we one pre-decided income, it is not renegotiated under pressure. Two, it is mood proof, it is not negotiated under, I didn't really feel like doing it today. I know that I have to do one-on-ones, but it was just kind of feeling a little inauthentic. So I kind of like tapped in with my inner self and I decided that I should just like push off the one-on-ones. I'm sorry. Did uh did I ask you for cycle babble like inner like childhood? Like it's it's Tuesday, and we do one-on-ones on Tuesday. Yeah, but it wasn't feeling like it. Who asked you if you're feeling like it? Mood proof. It's mood proof, which means you don't negotiate with it. Now, the third part of a rhythm is what anchors it all together, and this is what creates safety, it's identity giving. Who am I when I show up for this rhythm? Who am I when I don't negotiate a gratitude rhythm? That even when I walk into the building and I feel like I want to strangle everyone silently because everyone's pissing me off, but it's my gratitude rhythm day. I walk around and I look for the good because it's mood proof, which means even though I don't feel like giving people gratitude today, I will show up for it because in the act of showing up for it, guess what? I'm gonna find good in other people when I show up for that rhythm. And that's what creates safety because what it communicates to your people consistently, predictably, and reliably is this leader is steady no matter what's going on. She's not only steady when things are going well, and she's not steady, right? So leaders are like, No, I'm steady in crisis. I'm like, yeah, at the cost of your life. You shock absorb it. You say, I got this, I got this, I got this. You smile, even then when you're dying inside, right? You tell everyone I can handle it, and then you're up for six hours in the middle of the night. You're like, no, I got this, and then you're sitting on date night on your 25th wedding anniversary with your spouse, and you're answering slap messages. Well, I'm sorry, no, that's not called goting it, that's called lying to your staff and putting something else over here, and that can't be normal.

SPEAKER_04 29:27

Hi, my name's Jessica, and you just described my life.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

I was gonna say, I feel like we got a little called out just now. That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

But this is I mean, but that's real. That's I did this. Yes, I did this my whole life. I did this. This was me.

SPEAKER_04 29:45

It it's so it's mind-blowing to me. It's so refreshing to read something that you resonate with so much. It's yeah. I'm so glad you put the words on paper.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Thank you. Labor of love.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

Thank you. But I do, I do think, I mean, at least myself, I can't speak in on behalf of Jess, even though we are very similar in a lot of ways. But when we feel the chaos, at least my instinct is I need a system or a spreadsheet. Jess will tell you that I am the queen of spreadsheets. I think they could solve basically anything, probably wrong. Um, or I need another policy, because then there's the expectations, and like at least you have what you need for the said expectation. But what you're saying is that using let me ask you a question.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Yeah, why do you lean on that first? Why are those the first things you run to?

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Honestly, because it's something that's in my direct control. Yeah, I feel like that gives me some sense of grounding, and then I can better utilize myself to be a resource to the staff when they're in need of it. At least as my hindsight look at it. Now, after hearing all of your great things and reading your book, who created the chaos?

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Do what? Who created the chaos that you're creating a spreadsheet for?

SPEAKER_04 31:05

Let's the team's on the day.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Probably the team, the parents, the family. Who created the chaos? Did you create the chaos? Nope.

unknown 31:15

No.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

So give me an example. Who created the chaos that you decided I need a policy now?

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Okay, super specific example. We try to give a lot, we give a lot of autonomy to our directors who are incredible. They're great leaders in so many ways. Um, but we have a policy that the kiddos have to be dropped off at a certain time every single day. Like that's the expectation for the parents. It's a policy because that's when all of our learning happens. Well, we started to have more parents that would kind of go against it and they would have the reasons and the stories and why they couldn't be there on time. And our directors were like, Well, that's not the hill I want to die on. So they would just kind of let it go. But then I was like, no, no, no, we cannot do that. There's policy in place, you're expected to do such a thing. This is why it's written very clearly in our handbooks. But it's the accountability. Why would the policy make them change behavior? No, it did not. It was the accountability that that shifted it for us in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

What was the accountability? What did you do?

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Um, I started making sure that the school that needed my well, not even my attention, but needed the extra support. I made sure I was well aware and present so the teachers and the directors could see that I had that expectation and it wasn't just on a piece of paper, it was in real life. Great.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

You funded it again with your shock absorber. Oh goodness. Again, you funded it with your body. Proximity will create accountability. And then leaders cry and wonder why when they're in their 50s and 60s and they want to sell or exit and they have every system and process documented, but they cannot sell the business because they're still the business.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

So accountability is not I go to the building so I can model to you what it looks like. That's more performing confusion, which I talk about in chapter two of my book. Okay, that's your team communicating to you. I need you to actually come show me what that looks like. No, you're not seven. This isn't the second grade, you're a grown-up. And therefore, when I tell you that the parents need to come on time, right? And the director has resistance and says, it's not the hill I want to die on. This is the school standard. Walk me through why you chose to dishonor the school standard and chose your comfort instead. Because in the moment of telling the parent it's okay, you made a trade-off. You chose your comfort and relief over protecting the company's standard. And your job as a director is not protecting your comfort, it is protecting company standards. So, why did you do that? What would they answer you if you asked that question?

SPEAKER_02 34:17

To be honest, I don't think they would have a reason off of the top of their head. I think they would probably have a hard time coming up with terms of what that would look like.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

So, what is the assumption under that? Why does someone choose their comfort over protecting company standards?

SPEAKER_02 34:34

They don't like the conflict.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Yeah, they don't like the way that it feels. It doesn't make them feel very good when they have to go look at someone and tell them X, Y, and Z. So what do they do instead? They perform confusion. Katie, I don't really understand what you want me to do. I'm not really sure what to do when this parent says this. I don't really know what to do in this. We need a better system for this. If we have a spreadsheet that answers all of these kinds of questions, then I'll know what to do. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Which basically means accountability gets pushed down the road, pushed down the road, pushed down the road, pushed down the road. Katie steps in, shock absorb, shock absorb, shock absorb until Katie's dying inside. 103 fevers can't show up that day. And then she's like, Holy shit, why does everything route back to me? I have every system process and checklist. Can't you guys be grown-ups? Yeah, they could if you let them and let them meet the consequences of their actions. They are not meeting the consequences of their actions. You made a choice to let the parent do X, Y, and Z. What is the consequence for that? Consequence isn't punishment, it is predictable safety. When you made a choice to choose your comfort over company standards, you created unsafety in the organization. Because one of the reasons that we choose this standard is because it creates safety and predictability for the children's learning environment. And you made a choice to say, I choose my pleasure over the kids' safety and learning. When you explain it that way, guess what happens? They have to meet reality. And reality is telling them, oh my God, I'm actually not such a great director in my behavior. I'm a good person. I didn't say you're not a good person. You are an amazing person. Your behavior sucks. You need to go fix your behavior right now. That's what needs to change.

SPEAKER_04 36:33

I love that. I love that. I like the mic drop too. That was a nice touch at the end there. I love that. That is, you are speaking my language. Um, so we've never.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Why do leaders resist giving consequences?

SPEAKER_02 36:51

They don't want to be not liked. Right. My goodness. Nobody likes to be unliked. My goodness.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Why? Why are we so afraid to be not liked?

SPEAKER_04 37:05

What is that? That's definitely some insecurity. What do I have as well?

SPEAKER_02 37:11

I mean, I'm not in that position necessarily for myself, but I can definitely understand.

unknown 37:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

It's not just this position, Katie, in your marriage, in your parenting, in your relationships. Why are we so afraid to be unliked?

SPEAKER_04 37:29

I think that's just natural to feel like you want to be liked by everybody.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Yes, because in human history, being unliked threatened survival. Belonging meant access to food, protection, shelter, mating, shared resources, all the things that you need to belong into a community. And so if you were rejected from the community, you would risk starvation, death, all kinds of stuff. Okay. And so social exclusion, not being liked, carries insanely high stakes. If people are upset with me, I am unsafe.

SPEAKER_04 38:20

Yeah, I think that as a director in a school, if your team does not like you, I think that you start to feel like, well, maybe they're gonna put in their notice.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

And then what? What are they worried about?

SPEAKER_04 38:33

Right. Well, then I'm gonna be short-staffed. Like we go down this rabbit hole of emotion.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

Yes, yes. Here is the question to Silvia Can I tolerate someone else's temporary discomfort without abandoning myself and my own standards. And so the discomfort that we talk about is stay connected to you while staying connected to the other person. Lisa, I know how difficult it is that when parents come in and give you all of their legitimate reasons why they came late, I understand how uncomfortable it is to let the parent know that this is still the standard. It isn't easy. I'm not telling you it's easy. Given that it's hard, what is your plan? Given that this is difficult for you, what is your plan? But leaders don't do that. They say, given that it's hard, I'll absorb it. I'll do it, I'll make it easier for you, I'll grease the slide, I'll make the SOP, I'll be the person who makes everything easier for you. And then the leader says, Why do I have babies in my building? Well, is anyone in your building doing anything hard and uncomfortable? Or the second things get hard, it routes back to you, right? So this is why I tell the book, no, no, no, my directors take care of everything. I'm like, I know, until the stakes are high. And then when the stakes are high, it routes back to you, which means everyone plays pretend and you're the only one that's working. Let that sit with you for a second. Everyone plays pretend you're the only one that's working. Because everyone gets to play director until shit gets real, and then you step in, which means they play and pretend. I'm playing cows, right? I'm playing director. But when shit gets real, you'll cover for me. You'll cover for me. And then we glorify that at conferences and events. Oh, that's your job. Your job is to cover for people, your job is to be the ultimate shock absorber until you're on a lifeline.

SPEAKER_04 40:43

Wow. Yeah, I mean, I have I have been there and done that for years and years.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

We've all been there, Job. Now, let me tell you something. This is everyone reaches a point, okay? This is like it's called unteachable wisdom, okay? Everyone reaches a point where they finally say, This can't be normal. But you have to pay the price because first you start to pay for it with your time. You're like, I have time over here. I could squeeze four more seconds here, and then while I'm on the toilet, I can answer this message. And I could squeeze four more seconds here. So you pay for it with your time. But eventually there's no more time. So then you start to pay for it with your invisible labor. You're like, Well, I'll think about it at two in the morning. I'll think about it on my way to Target. I'll think about it while I'm driving, I'll think about it there, right? And then you pay for it with your invisible labor. Okay. Then you start to pay for it with money. I'll hire someone else, I'll buy another software, I'll bring another consultant, I'll hire another trainer. Money, money, money, money, money. And eventually you're like, money isn't solving this. And eventually you pay for it with your aliveness, with your life. You are hollow and dead inside. And that is when the declaration of this can't be normal. Because then at that moment, what happens is when the leader meets the resistance of their team, which by the way is normal, all teams resist. Resistance isn't the problem. The problem is you don't know what to do when resistance comes. Resistance is not the problem. You need to know what to do when resistance comes. So when resistance comes, you're like, oh, high resistance. I'm gonna stay steady right now and let this person flail in front of me. You know why? Because when I step in again, I die inside, and I will no longer die inside. I will choose me while I stay connected to you. It's not either or.

SPEAKER_04 42:28

Absolutely. I love that. I love that. Love that. So, what happens to a team when a leader, maybe such as myself, stops being the single point of like everyone's emotional needs being taken on them. What would you say changes in their environment maybe in the next few months or so?

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Well, I think we need to ask a question before that. What's the first step to start doing that? Because everyone wants to go straight to relief, right? The question signals, honey, please give me relief. Tell me what's on the other side, which is okay. I yeah, I I love these questions, right? But the question is still signaling that you're in the place of you're gonna give me the magic bullet, right? You're gonna tell me the magical thing that sits on the other side. There is no magical thing, there is no magical thing. We start one step at a time, and so when we start this process of removing ourselves from being the shock absorber, we start with the first breakdown. What is the thing that keeps you up in the middle of the night? What is the thing that runs on loop in your head? So, what is that for you?

SPEAKER_04 43:36

For me, um it's it's everything that kind of connects the sit center. It's the financials, it's the staff, it's the making sure the staff are okay.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

The biggest pain point, the biggest breakdown that if that stopped routing through you, you would find some capacity and some safety. What is it? Oh.

SPEAKER_04 44:00

That's a tough one for me. I like it. Tell me what it is. Control. That's hard.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

Um, I I mean I like not letting go. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Go back, go back, go back, go back, go back. What do you mean you like control? Um I was the fancy word for I need safety. And I think the way to get it is through control.

SPEAKER_04 44:26

Yeah, yeah. I I like to know what's happening. I feel the weight of uh stay with me, stay slow with me.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Why do you like to know what's happening?

SPEAKER_04 44:37

Because I feel responsible for everything that happens at our schools.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Why do you feel responsible for everything that happens at your school?

SPEAKER_04 44:46

For me, it's because I created it. And therefore, therefore, it's my job to make sure that it's all good.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

But you have a team. I do. Okay. So they're amazing, don't get me wrong. They are what makes someone amazing in your world?

SPEAKER_04 45:08

Um efficiency.

unknown 45:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

So if they're efficient, why do you still have to know what's going on? It's clearly not giving you what you need. You're not feeling safe, Jessica. You're not, which is why you keep checking.

SPEAKER_04 45:26

Yeah, I I think maybe past experiences have a lot to do with um how we come about needing to know more information, you know. Um, I had some people that were in the wrong spots at our school, and they it we needed to make some changes because I didn't feel like so.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

You made the changes, you brought in a new person. What behaviors are they doing that's signaling to you it's not safe yet. I still need to be part of this.

SPEAKER_04 46:00

So the new team, they are they're doing great. Um they're not really giving me those signals anymore. I'm just struggling, letting go.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

But that's you putting all the onus on you again. So that's you saying, I hired a good team, they're doing a great job, and so now it's my job to figure out how to not, you know, do all this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Trust is a response to predictable, reliable, and consistent behavior. When the behavior is unconsistent, the grain will loop until you feel safe, which means your team could be lovely, but they are not consistent, predictable, or reliable right now. And that I can guarantee you, or you would be safe.

SPEAKER_04 46:51

Yeah, I can see that. I I can definitely see that. I know right now we're dealing a lot with staffing needs and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

And excuses, what are there with them? Yeah, there will always be staffing issues, there will always be enrollment issues, there will always be financial issues, there will always be parent issues. If they get to excuse not showing up reliably because there are staffing issues, you will always be umbilical corded and tied to the center because this is what's happening. We accept people's excuses and reasons as a reason why they couldn't show up today, and then we want to give grace, and we're like, oh, I really understand. Yeah, you were short staffed today, so that's why I have to go help you. No, short staffing will always happen. So, what will be your predictable rhythms of return? So, even when you're short staffed, you still need to do this. That is what a rhythm is. If you only do this when everyone's here on time and it's beautiful weather, and no one called out and no one did this and no one did that, that means you can't really do your job.

SPEAKER_04 48:07

Because if you Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't know a day like that.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

I don't either. If you can only do your job in perfect conditions, can an ER doctor only do his job when he sleeps a full night? So accident comes in, cardiologist is called at two o'clock in the morning, emergency heart. I didn't sleep. I I don't know that I'm gonna be able to perform the surgery properly. Like, I need to go nap a little bit longer. Are you crazy? This person is dying. What the hell? Okay, pilot's driving. Oh my god, it's really cloudy today. Sorry, guys. I don't know that I can fly this plane. I mean, we're already 10,000 feet elevation, but damn, I've never seen cloudy skies before. Okay, here's what the problem is the directors and leaders operate as if they've never seen call outs before. Oh my god, I three people called out today. I'm like, I'm shocked. I'm not gonna be able to do my work today.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

Right, right. Why do we see this so much in early childhood?

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Are you five years old or are you 35 years old? Why are you acting surprised when someone calls out? Why do you act surprised when a parent submits a complaint? Why are you acting surprised when licensing shows up? This happens every single day. You must have systems, standards, and rhythms around the stuff that happen every single day. But you guys don't do that. You create systems for when everything is perfect, this is the system that we follow.

SPEAKER_03 49:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Oh that can't be normal.

SPEAKER_04 49:35

It certainly is not. Oh my goodness, there's so much so much good information.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

What's coming up when you say that? Around the breakdowns. This is the biggest issue in childcare. We act surprised on things that are not surprises. Yeah, every single time I talk to a leader and she's like, We had a really bad case of the stomach flu. I was like, Yeah, so did you did last year and the year before that, and the year before that, and the year before that? And you're gonna have a bad case of the stomach flu next year, and the year after that, and the year after that, and the year after that. You know why? Because the flu comes every single year. So, how about you figure out what your rhythms need to be for when there's a giant stomach flu and stop acting surprised that three people had the flu?

unknown 50:26

Right.

SPEAKER_04 50:28

I feel that because yes, it happens every year, and we still seem surprised somehow.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Why that it's happening? Why are we surprised?

SPEAKER_04 50:39

Because we don't have that rhythm, we haven't created that rhythm to return back to normalcy, to return back to our everyday functions.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

We believe that the false promise of systems will create immunity to all of these things. We have an illusion in our mind that there is a magical system process software checklist SOP spreadsheet that will one day create immunity to all of these things that come up. And I am here to give you a loving hug that nobody gets immunity to these things. It's called being human, it's called operating a school, you don't get immunity to this, you don't get a pass. I know you were up all night. Life is relentless, you don't get a pass. You don't how will you show up even when you're tired, overwhelmed, and grieving? Why do you get a pass and I never get a pass? Why? Because I'm the leader, therefore I'm not human.

SPEAKER_03 51:46

Oof.

SPEAKER_01 51:47

We were talking about that this morning, Jess.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

We were, we were, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

What were you talking about? Um, so obviously Jessica and I are partners. However, I am more boots on the ground. She gets to be behind the scenes. She does wonderful at that. Thank you so much for that, Jessica. Um, but being boots on the ground, we're as like leaders in that capacity. I feel like we're expected to have every answer. Show up, be ready to go. Um, I have had a horrendously challenging time here as of late, but I still show up every day and I show up, I wouldn't say unbothered, but I show up fully ready to be passionate about the field because that is what I'm here to do. Even on my worst days, I'm still here and I'm still passionate.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

And so the expectation of everyone else is you can show up as long as it doesn't make you uncomfortable. But the moment you're uncomfortable or not feeling it, you get a pass. You could just give me some beautiful orchestrated reason and excuse, which is right. The excuse, they're not lying. No one's saying my dog ate my homework, right? They're giving some legitimate excuse, but that becomes a pass now. You don't have to be passionate every day, you still have to keep the kids safe, you don't have to be excited every single day. You still need to get all the kids' coats on. You don't need to be authentically happy to walk in, you still need to smile at every parent when they walk in through the door. That is the difference of a rhythm. I didn't ask you what mood you're in, I didn't ask you. The standard is this. I didn't ask you if you were in the mood today to do it. You know why? Because you're newborn in the middle of the night. Did they ask you if you were in the mood to get up and feed them? Did they ask you permission? No. But you got up anyways. Why? Because you made a choice to become a parent. You made a choice to become a teacher, to become a leader, to work in this organization, which means part of being here is there are responsibilities that we do even when we're not in the mood.

SPEAKER_04 53:57

Yeah, yeah. Mood proof. I like that. Mood proof.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

Yeah, it's my favorite word. I tell my kids all the time. They're like, I wasn't in the mood. I'm like, uh, did I ask you if you were in the mood? I'm sorry. I don't I don't remember asking that as part of my question. If you were in the mood of cleaning your room, it's cleaning room day. Like, I don't, I don't think I asked you if you were in the mood. Would you like to get yourself in the mood? There are things you could do to get yourself in the mood. You can go take a walk, you can go get a snack, you could go drink some water, you could go put on music. You there are ways again, go this, we're going full circle.

SPEAKER_00 54:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:29

Energy. What will you do to create your energy? Because we're not negotiating the standards of what we do in the classroom. That's not up for negotiation, just because you're not in the mood today.

SPEAKER_04 54:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 54:47

My goodness.

SPEAKER_04 54:48

Yeah. Mood proof. I love it. I love it. Yes. What would you say? And I know we're running short on time, but it's so I can go for 20 minutes. What would you say? Um one thing that maybe leaders need to stop doing immediately.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

Yeah, so a few things. Um, one is stop saying let's. So leaders go into meetings uh with their team or with their teachers, and they're like, we have this, you know, the company has this goal, let's figure it out together. It's not your goal to figure out, it's the director's job to figure it out. So it's not let's figure it out, it's this is the standard. What is your plan? How will you figure this out? If you need my help, you're a grown-up and you can ask me.

SPEAKER_03 55:40

Love that.

SPEAKER_01 55:41

But it's not okay, that's one. Okay, I'll talk about some specific language, which I think is really important. Leaders say things, I need to get everyone on the same page. No, that is code word for. I need everyone to feel comfortable about this initiative so I don't have to feel uncomfortable that I'm putting out something that people are going to resist. And I don't want to deal with resistance. So can everyone just be on the same page? You are never going to get everyone on the same page.

SPEAKER_04 56:11

You I love that. We've heard that so many times that you gotta get everybody on the same page. Everybody's gotta see the vision, everybody's gotta, you know, and it's like, well, what if they just what if they don't?

SPEAKER_01 56:21

Don't if they don't, and what if they resist it? Then what? How will you deal with the resistance? How will you deal with the resistance? Okay, so getting everyone on the same page, exactly, right? Getting everyone on the same page, let's um another common one is um I need buy-in. Um, again, another cover for getting everyone on the same page. I need buy-in, which is I am not fully sure that I want to do this because I'm sure of it, but if people start to question it, I might start to feel a little bit shaky. So let me put it out there and see if I could get buy-in, and then I'll go execute it. Okay, so here's a classic example. I spoke to an owner, they have five locations. They came to me, they wanted to hire me to go do uh an in-person leadership retreat for their team. So I told them what I would do, what the price, all that kind of stuff. And then he was like, I don't know, because you know, I don't know if they're gonna execute. Like, I don't know if I have their buy-in. So like I need to present it to them, you know, and I need to get their buy-in, and then I could see like if I could bring you down. And I was like, hey, um, allow me to do some coaching care in this moment. That is poor leadership. Okay. Because what you're saying is, I'm not gonna be able to hold these people accountable because I don't want to deal with the resistance and the discomfort. So, unless I get everyone excited about up-leveling their growth, um, I can't really invest, which basically means the standards of the company are based on the lowest bar of discomfort. So go scan your building and find your weakest teacher, your weakest leader who tolerates the lowest amount of discomfort. Congratulations, those are your standards. So you can say, no, my standards are up here. I'm like, no, no, no, those are the standards and the delusions of your mind. The standards that actually execute in reality are based on the person's lowest tolerance of discomfort because you refuse to engage with reality. That is what's actually happening. So the first step here is why am I so resistant to people giving me resistance? Most people see it as a signal of this isn't a good idea. No, if you put out an idea and you don't get any resistance, your idea is not a good idea. You know why? Because it's actually not a growth edge. Because a growth edge means that people will be uncomfortable. So if you got a hundred percent buy-in, that's a pretty mediocre idea. That's a signal that that's a pretty mediocre idea. But if you get a lot of resistance, you're probably bumping up against people's comfort zones.

unknown 59:03

Good.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

Now you have a growth-oriented company.

SPEAKER_04 59:07

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 59:09

Yeah, I was gonna say, what a good way to switch your mindset. Yes, hot diggity dog. Yes, yes, yeah, so much fun. I know, I know we're running in like shorter, shorter on time than I'd like to because I feel like we could talk all day. Um, but the the sign that success has tipped into survival. What is the red flag?

SPEAKER_01 59:33

So I mean I know there's a lot of them, but I'll share a few because everyone will typically have uh a few of them. Um before I answer the question, let me actually talk about one of the chapters in the book called Drift. So drift is inevitable, and drift, well, actually, let me read the exact definition here instead of trying to remember it by heart. Um so sorry.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:00

No, you're good. You're good. What is I'm looking through my largely highlighted book right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

I know, right? Um oh my gosh, where's my here we go? Drift is the gradual, often unnoticed loss of connection to your usual anchors and rhythms as a leader. Okay, it's a temporary, often unnoticed loss of connection. So drift is inevitable, and here's why. You're human, which means someone gets sick, your husband goes out of town, your child ran a fever, your mother-in-law came to visit, uh, there's a new mayor, there's an election, it was raining, there was a snowstorm, fill in the blanks. Okay. All of those things are the conditions of drift because it does a temporary uh disconnection from your usual things, right? So your usual rhythm is like I wake up, I have my coffee, I do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But today's Wednesday, and I couldn't do that today because my husband was out of town. Okay, that's gonna throw a curveball. So you're going to drift, okay? So the issue is that every leader is waiting for the day that they never drift, that they always are, you know, 100% of the time. No, drift is inevitable. You need to return. You need to return to your anchors and rhythms. So, what to answer your question, going back to your question, which is what is a sign that a leader is overwhelmed? We want to try to catch it at the first sign of drift, right? At the first sign that, oh, I think I'm drifting from my usual anchors. Now, drift is a couple of different signals, right? So you'll have signals of like, wow, that's a really important standard, and I just gave that person a pass. Okay, I'm drifting. That's that's the first signal of drift. I said that I wouldn't do that, and I did it anyways. I'm drifting. Now, here's the issue with drift. It is so subtle because in that moment, nothing blew up. So your body goes to, it's fine, it's fine, it's okay. I I it's one time, it's okay, it's fine. Except the next hour, you do it again for something else, and then that starts drifting. And then three hours later, something else drifts. And then before you know it, you're out in the middle of the ocean surrounded by sharks and wondering why you can't keep yourself alive. Okay. So that is the drift. Okay. So I'll give a couple of other signals for leaders that are listening. Waking up in the middle of the night is a signal of drift. Okay, it means that your body is overwhelmed, it is communicating to you. Please listen to it. Okay. Another sign that you are drifting is um a lot of leaders are like, I don't know why I'm so rageful. Like, I don't understand why I get so mad over things that seem so insignificant. I'm like, well, that's because the 60 things before that, you gave a pass, a pass, a pass, a pass, a pass, and then it finally came to this one. And you're like, Are you effing kidding me?

unknown 1:02:51

What in the world?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

Right. And you're like, I can't believe I had that level of rage. Okay, that's overwhelming. That is you stepping back into survival. Okay. Petty fights with your spouse. Like, you're like, why are we arguing over dumb shit? Okay, you're probably overwhelmed again with the invisible labor. Okay. Does that give enough examples? Like, those are the signals that that's going on.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:14

Yeah, I wish I knew this like three years ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

Yeah, but now you're ready. So now you're ready, so now it's meeting you, right? Always remember that. Now you're ready, so now it's meeting you. Now you have the capacity. The way that we stay anchored in drift is we must be in community. Whether that's with friends, mentors, you need community and mentorship who spots your drift before you do, who can signal to you, Jess, you got bags under your eyes. I know you've kind of normalized the 3 a.m. wakeups, but it's actually not normal. So, can we talk about that? Like, let's just go follow up, let's go have a little chat. We don't need to solve any problems. I just want to hear, tell me about the bags. Like, let's talk about them. And you don't have to optimize it and you don't have to SOP it or spreadsheet it. Just tell me about the bags. That is what we need in our life.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:06

Absolutely, absolutely. We we try to do things alone too often, and we feel alone, even though we have a large team that is supporting the vision and the goals, but as a leader, sometimes you still feel alone in coaching programs and talking to people, just finding out what's really going on makes such a difference. I wish there was more community around me when I was struggling through a lot of this.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:33

Could we could we answer that one final question? Why do we try to do things alone? Why do we feel so proud when we're the individuals and we made it on our own? Why is that such a for lack of a better word? It's a pervasive concept here in America.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:48

It is, it is. Um, that is a good question.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:53

I yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

So why do you think it is?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:58

I think that as leaders, we're kind of told not to talk down to our team about certain things. And so, or maybe our spouses don't understand what we're going through. So we start just holding it in, and then we continue that pattern.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:15

That's one angle of it, absolutely. The other piece is individualism is unfortunately very rewarded in our society. Yeah. Um, and because of that, when we need, when we have a need of, I need help, I don't know how to do this alone, we immediately feel weak and say, I I can't ask for help, I'm weak. And so we signal to our team isolation means strength. The more you isolate yourself, the stronger you are, which isn't true because the more isolated you are, the more vulnerable you are to actually outside threats. But the reason why it is so difficult to need, right? Why like To actually say I need help. It means if I tell you I need you, it means you matter to me. If you matter to me, then you impact me. You can influence me. If you can impact and influence me, you can hurt me. Which means I have to risk emotional and relational vulnerability to ask you for help. And that is a very high cost. So I'd rather just do it all by myself until you break. Right? Why do teachers not ask for help from their colleagues? Like, well, last time I asked for help, she didn't, you know, show up for me, and then I was alone, and it was a blah blah blah blah blah. Right? It's it's very to ask, to need, but that's how we create real connection, real intimacy, real relational infrastructure. And that's how we can break this cycle of leaders that are overwhelmed and exhausted and emotionally depleted, and we can actually build beautiful schools of excellence. And that's my mission.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:06

I love that. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:08

This is exactly why we needed you all on.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:11

Not niggas. Yes, the book, what we've been talking about, like it's everything that I know I've been feeling the last several years, um, and kind of working through on my own, which I probably should not be doing. Um, but let's tell the listeners how to get a hold of this book because I mean, y'all need to read it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, so it's available wherever books are sold, Amazon, Walmart, uh, Barnes and Noble, everywhere. Uh, if you want to get chapter one uh for free, we created that because that's that again. Jessica probably highlighted every line in chapter one. That's that moment. So you can go to thiscampbenormal.com slash chapter one, and I'll give you guys the link. You can put that in the show notes. Um, and people can um check out over there, they can get chapter one and feel that resonance and then you know go ahead and get the book. Um, so this can't be normal.com is where everything is, the whole hub for everything.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:07

I love that. My friend Bree McCarty was like, I give everybody this book. I tell them to get it. And I was like, I have a really good one. We were chatting a little bit about it, and I was so excited to hear that. And I'm definitely highly recommending as well because it just it spoke so much to me. I I had to sit there and go, Jessica, you cannot highlight the whole thing. You can't. So you know that's when it speaks to you when you just want to keep going.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

So thank you for having me. Really, thank you for doing the work that they're doing and bringing these messages to the world. People need it. So thank you. That's nice.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:41

We appreciate you for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:43

Um, but for our listeners, if any part of this wonderful and probably one of my favorite episodes felt like you were reading your private 10 p.m. thoughts that you keep deep down and dark, um, that's the point. You are not weak, you are not failing, and you are definitely not alone. You should 100% grab her book. She is incredible, and so are her words of wisdom.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:05

Absolutely. If this one hits home, make sure to share it with a director near you or an owner that maybe needs to hear it too. And follow us on Childcare Confidential on YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. Subscribe so you never miss an episode. And make sure to go and follow Hani too, because I am just uh Katie has spoken just great things about you and I've connected a few times at some conferences, but this just blew my mind. Thank you for having me. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:33

Yes, well, we'll talk from the front lines of early childhood. We will see you next time.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:37

See you next time, everybody. Bye.